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dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45784
Location: yes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 24 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

most drivers i chat to are taxi folk, gone electric or aspire to go electric

i do my bit with the others

wheezing on fumes at lights and mentioning that they get that level of pollution every day all day is a start

cheaper to run is a useful fact
easier to drive is also a selling point, nobody needs gears in a taxi, traffic, nav and customers are plenty to deal with

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9740
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 24 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

jema wrote:
I'm looking at the moment at the price of 2020 Nissan Leafs, they seem to be going for £7,500.
That's some pretty tragic depreciation, but there are loads of people where buying at that price would pay back in a couple of years compared to diesel.
There's some number where if you are commuting more than that number a day then it's crazy not to be running an EV now if you can charge at home.
It is probably lower than 50 miles a day now.


but for my relatives who bought a secondhand Nissan Leaf, it didn't work out like that - the car had a 30 mile range fully charged, which was not enough for their needs, they were unable to sell it on, and lost all their money on it. I'm not surprised at the 'tragic depreciation', given their reputation - they are known for poor battery and loss of range. I think they would only be financially viable for people doing daily short commutes and either own another car or never want to go on longer journeys. I wouldn't touch them.

People buying new EVs now, need to do so recognising they are unlikely to depreciate in the same way as ICE cars. They may never see their money again, which is unfortunate if life circumstances change, if they made the wrong choice etc.

Personally, I don't really consider depreciation when purchasing a car - I buy it, then run it into the ground. The question for me is not what it is worth in a year or two, but how long will it last before I have to replace it. so the equation for me is - yes EVs have fewer moving parts, therefore in theory last longer, however maintenance and replacement parts are a LOT more expensive, and, with the kind of driving I do, how long would it continue to serve me. I don't have these answers, but it doesn't look good for the Nissan leaf, compared to buying an ICE

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45784
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 24 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

our 2 gen bikes are nearly a decade old, batteries fine, mechanicals fine, less bother than gen one

a similar price at new to a pedal only bike of similar quality, worth 60%+ as much now as when new

40% dep over a decade seems pretty good, and they are still very functional(I'm not but that is a different matter)

with all mass market products, there are good uns and bad uns

if you think of it like ice cars, from new to at home they drop at least 30%

after that most return to the earth quite quickly losing value as they go

the good uns last well and are easily mended, after the first drop they drop steadily until they go up in price as "classics"



iirc
you could charge at home on low tariff leccy?

would like to buy once and keep long term?

you are rural, on uk road surfaces, need to transport persons and "stuff" ?

imho there are reasonably priced EVs that fit those criteria

im not sure which will be best at long term, long term is often a surprise rather than designed in, some are made to last, most are made for profit now

if it is a long term thing avoid SH first gen and most 2nd gen
do research on prices specs etc
get an oily one to give it eyeball and poke to establish if it is well-built as a body/running gear etc, uk road surfaces are degraded to dirt road standards in parts

get a new un, hopefully a well made one and tweak it for your needs

ps the last almost decent "rural"nissan was the cherry, not very long-lasting though

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45784
Location: yes
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 24 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

protecting a redundant industry and the ice scum who pay the donations

at least rishi's freeports will give scope for interesting and creative paperwork

easy reversed after july 5

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45503
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 24 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky you can upgrade/repair/replace leaf batteries. This firm seems to be very well regarded:

https://www.cleevelyev.co.uk/battery-upgrades/

If they’re sitting on a worthless car then they should talk to someone like this

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9740
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 24 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
Nicky you can upgrade/repair/replace leaf batteries. This firm seems to be very well regarded:

https://www.cleevelyev.co.uk/battery-upgrades/

If they’re sitting on a worthless car then they should talk to someone like this


well as it turned out, their circumstances changed dramatically, they don't drive now, and the car had to go. I understand it went on ebay, for sod all. But if they still had it , I doubt they could have found the extra 8.5 - 12K for a new battery.. just in the hope of recovering their lost money.... plus the issue of that company being in Cheltenham... which is a fair bit further than their 30m range

I guess if those figures are right, you are looking at a SH nissan leaf costing 7500 + 8500 new battery.. means it actually cost 16k. which... I guess... might make it a pretty good car, what with its new battery and all. but 16K is more than most want to spend on their car.

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28156
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Nicky cigreen wrote:


but for my relatives who bought a secondhand Nissan Leaf, it didn't work out like that - the car had a 30 mile range fully charged,


Well that's plainly misselling to someone who didn't know to check the range and battery health before they bought.
You will find similar rip offs buying any kind of car.
But you absolutely do need a bit of a clue before buying any car really, 5 minutes on google would have flagged the issues around old Nissan Leafs.
Have they any legal routes?

jema
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28156
Location: escaped from Swindon
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Apparently in the USA now, the average price of a new ICE cars is higher than the pre tax credit price of some EVs with 300 miles of range and that was before Tesla just cut prices again.
Now if you follow my posts, you might know that whenever someone says "average" I throw a hissy fit as it's a term massively open to abuse, but it represents some form of milestone regardless.

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9740
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

jema wrote:
Nicky cigreen wrote:


but for my relatives who bought a secondhand Nissan Leaf, it didn't work out like that - the car had a 30 mile range fully charged,


Well that's plainly misselling to someone who didn't know to check the range and battery health before they bought.....


well obviously they bought a lemon. But that is my point.. of course Nissan leafs have depreciated dramatically if second hand ones have knackered useless batteries that will cost more than the whole car to replace. A bit of googling suggests they were not unique, this is a well known issue with Nissan leaf.
I agree with Dpack here - I would steer away from a 1st gen and most 2nd gen SH EVs
If folk can afford a new EV, great, but it should be noted, for those that like to driver newer cars, there is no certainty they will get a lot on trade in, as people wise up to the potential problems. For those of us with a smaller budget, the way forward feels a bit of a minefield.
I'm sorry for my relatives who made a mistake with their purchase, but it did provide a good lesson for the rest of us.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45503
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I think whoever buys my car when I get rid of it will be buying a solid reliable car. It's 2 years old, I haven't seen a drop in range and nothings gone wrong with it so far.

You do have to be careful when buying an older EV at the moment, but that is improving because most of the real crap ones will end up out of the market, the newer ones are better, there are more firms about to repair/replace battery packs.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45784
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

if folk can put new leccy in an old ice frame, a battery/motor replacement seems plausible

it worked a treat for my Milwaukee drills lighter, more energy and faster charging
they have industrial mechanicals, so new batteries made sense
spose the same applies to vehicles, bolting a new lump into used ice ones is a long tradition etc

im not sure if it is worth it with crap first gen stuff unless you are planning an ev heritage centre for our tardigrade overlords to enjoy

so long as the body and wires are ok, swapping batteries or motors should be plausible and keep a half decent one for a very long time

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45503
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

dpack wrote:
if folk can put new leccy in an old ice frame


Very expensive atm, but will be much cheaper in a couple of years

Nicky cigreen



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9740
Location: Devon, uk
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
I think whoever buys my car when I get rid of it will be buying a solid reliable car. It's 2 years old, I haven't seen a drop in range and nothings gone wrong with it so far.


I can't see why you would want to sell it on rather than keep it then.

Quote:
You do have to be careful when buying an older EV at the moment, but that is improving because most of the real crap ones will end up out of the market, the newer ones are better, there are more firms about to repair/replace battery packs.


yes, hopefully a situation that just gets better. Sadly, as always with adopting new technology, some people will lose money by making the wrong decision.

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 45784
Location: yes
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
dpack wrote:
if folk can put new leccy in an old ice frame


Very expensive atm, but will be much cheaper in a couple of years


i know, but it is proof of principal

that moves, this pushes it is an old tradition
chops, rods and oh dear oh dear have skills that could easily be adapted to ev stuff

tools is tools, the manual and the next thought have been applied for human history

mad maxing an ev seems easy, repair should be easy for normal ones

the 3rd gen stuff now should be long lasting compared to ice

800 hp from a 45 kilo motor, wow, that is another part of the ev equation

ps if i win the lottery that i do not play, i get to spec the 2500hp off road daft fast small monster, hope you have a compression suit

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45503
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 24 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Yep ev has crazy potential

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