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A cautionary tale on the impact of wind and wave farms

 
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tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45389
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 05 9:46 am    Post subject: A cautionary tale on the impact of wind and wave farms Reply with quote
    

Radio 4 friday 15:00 Changing Places
Wind and Wildlife: Dylan Winter challenges renewable energy enthusiasts with a cautionary tale about the impacts of wind and wave farms on British wildlife.

Jonnyboy



Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 05 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

I've been looking into this, especially with the impact of certain schemes on Strangford lough.

Is it worth considering that some species have pretty much had it anyway and that we should concentrate on helping those that are doing well? After all it's rare that we consider the positive impact of a scheme, even if it reduces panda numbers but builds new habitat for ground dwelling nightjars....

ButteryHOLsomeness



Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 05 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

i'm definately one for protecting habitats BUT everything needs to be carefully balanced.

for one thing, how many habitats would be or are ruined because of alternative methods for energy production?

and how many habits will be destroyed in the long run if we don't curtail our more negative sources of power (coal or nuclear based) ?

it's not just a matter of that particular spot for a small time span, you really have to look at things on a much larger scale.

when i moved from skye a proposal was just being made to put up a windfarm in edinbane. now i used to live in edinbane and i can tell you it's one of the few UGLY spots on skye. it genuinely has nothing going for it, even the folks there are about as dull and lifeless as the surroundings (which is odd on skye, most folks are eccentric and many are also friendly!) but everyone was kicking up a storm about how the wind farm would blight the beauty of the landscape and be bad for nature etc

the only major natural habitats going on there was slugs and moles! sheep don't count they can and do graze darn near anywhere

to be honest, i felt like it was more a NIMBY case and they were using any excuse they could to fight it... this won't be the case everywhere but i think it's an easy one to grab at without really having to fight too hard if you see what i mean

it's about balance, forward planning and forward thinking.

moogie



Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 525
Location: Near Bridgend
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

HAs any one seen this months readers digest? Appart some interesting articles on veg, there was one on nuclear fuel by some conservationist (i've forgotten who and I've passed it on now to someone else) saying that nuclear power is actually a good thing compared to other sources of fuel and we shouldn't be pulling down power stations. It was pretty interesting if you can get hold of a copy. I'm not saying I agree with his vies just that it is an interesting debate and worth a look at the article.

Blue Peter



Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 2400
Location: Milton Keynes
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

The nuclear debate is going to be one of the big debates of this year, now the election's over (don't want to discuss important things when people are thinking about voting, eh!).

For:

Uranium is currently not running out (though it will be eventually);

Production of electricity itself by nuclear produces little greenhouse gas, though when you take into account the mining, transport, etc. of uranium, it is not CO2-free (but still less than fossil fuels at the moment);

Doesn't inconveniently not produce electricity when the sun doesn't sun or the wind doesn't blow.


Against:
Uranium is a finite resource, and what do we do when that runs out?
Dealing with the waste has not been sorted out, and is very costly (I believe that the current projected UK bill is 48 billion);
Nuclear weaposn;
Terrorism;
Leaks.


Personally, I don't think that it's the way to go, but I think it probably will be the route which we take.


Peter.

thos



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 1139
Location: Jauche, Duchy of Brabant (Bourgogne-ci) and Charolles, Duchy of Burgundy (Bourgogne-ça)
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Although I feel the case against nuclear power is overstated, it does need a lot of cooling, which generates water vapour, which is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. What a shame we can't build nuclear power stations in the middle of cities and pipe hot water into houses and factories.

Jonnyboy



Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

It's the waste I worry about, increased levels of radiation in fish, shellfish and seaweed have been found in the Irish sea and even off the coast of Norway, these have been directly attributed to Sellafield pouring technetium-99 into the sea, they say it's currently safe but who can tell what the cumulative effects might be? The stuff accumulates in animals and has a half life of 200,000 years!

Blue Peter



Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 2400
Location: Milton Keynes
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Thos,

I thought that I learnt from your brief pros and cons on global warming a while back that water vapour was not a driver but a consequence (can't remember the correct term here) of global warming. I must admit that it would surprise me if any anthropic water vapour had a big effect, because I would have thought that it would fairly quickly reach an equilibrium (it might even rain on my garden a bit more, please).

For all the pros and cons about nuclear, I think that the main thing against it is that it's another non-renewable source. And so what are my grandchildren (or even children) going to do when uranim gets scarce. At the moment, we have a slight chance of using the bounty of fossil fuels to switch to renewable energy. I very much doubt that there will be enough "excess" from nuclear to make a switch when that runs out. It's our choice, but the effects will last for millennia,


Peter.

thos



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 1139
Location: Jauche, Duchy of Brabant (Bourgogne-ci) and Charolles, Duchy of Burgundy (Bourgogne-ça)
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 05 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

PeterHiett wrote:
Thos,

I thought that I learnt from your brief pros and cons on global warming a while back that water vapour was not a driver but a consequence (can't remember the correct term here) of global warming.


Both sides agree that the greenhouse effect of water vapour dwarfs that of CO2 and that there is a correlation between global temperatures, water vapour and CO2. They also agree that water vapour is a multiplier, although clouds increase the earth's albedo. At higher temperatures, the vapour point is increased, so fewer clouds (although I would have thought that the temperature increase we are talking about even worst-case would not have a measurable effect).

Consensus says CO2 levels increase temperature which increases water vapour which increases temperature, so a small increase in CO2 has a more than proportionate increase in temperature. Given this, a local source of water vapour will (until equilibrium is reached) locally increase the greenhouse gases and therefore the contribution to global warming.

Identifying the truth is complicated by the people making the arguments. The most vociferous arguers for the Consensus view also tend to be against nuclear power and the Contrarians tend to be in favour.

It is a shame that such important issues cannot be dealt with using logic and the scientific method, but they never have.

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