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Nanny



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 7:36 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

vegplot wrote:
Be wary of dumping straight into the river. It's not something I'd do without taking advice first. By flushing away I mean into the main drain rather than directly into a river (for which you probably need a licence). It would be better if you simply rinsed away into a soakaway or directly into the soil and this will provide effective treatment before it gets into a water course.

Do a bit of research before using caustic to get the concentrations right.


i didn't mean tipping the solution into the river, that wouldn't be right...i might rinse the skin in the river as it is running water, this is what the book suggests by the way

as to concentration i have no idea even where to look so i was again going on the concentration of the KOH which was 4 oz to 10 gallons american which equates to 8.33 uk gallons

my conatiner only holds 28 liters or 6.16 uk gallons so i would use...3 oz caustic in there

should be about right...............

dpack



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 33081
Location: yes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

has anyone said eye protection

Nanny



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dpack wrote:
has anyone said eye protection


rubber gloves

your go

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nanny wrote:

so if i use the caustic soda, thenwould i need the salt and i am guessing that i would use the same amount of caustic soda as i would KOH


Not necessarily! How much potassium hydroxide does the recipe call for, in how much water (and other stuff)?

Quote:

but.....how would i dispose of the leftovers safely

could it go down the septic tank directly rather than down the loo?


I'd be happy to put it down the drain (with plenty of water) but very nervous to drain it to septic tank. I've used waste lye as weedkiller before, does take some time for a patch to recover... Got any bindweed you want killing?

Nanny



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
Nanny wrote:

so if i use the caustic soda, thenwould i need the salt and i am guessing that i would use the same amount of caustic soda as i would KOH


Not necessarily! How much potassium hydroxide does the recipe call for, in how much water (and other stuff)?

Quote:

but.....how would i dispose of the leftovers safely

could it go down the septic tank directly rather than down the loo?


I'd be happy to put it down the drain (with plenty of water) but very nervous to drain it to septic tank. I've used waste lye as weedkiller before, does take some time for a patch to recover... Got any bindweed you want killing?


the book calls for 4 oz to 8.33 uk gallons

now you have me worried.....i don't need any weedkiller......

all my drains go to the septic tank...........not on mains drainage

this is wales you know........we've only just got the 'lectric up here and if you run the shower the lights go dim

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nanny wrote:

even better then

so after i do this one with the salt and alum to keep the hair on one side, i could forget the salt, use perhaps 4 oz caustic to whatever the equivalent uk is to 10 american gallons and then go for it with another skin


Okay... And the instructions are for potassium hydroxide?

Doing a little mental arithmetic... 1 mole of NaOH is 40g, and 1 mole of KOH is 56g. So Potassium hydroxide is near as dammit half as heavy again, and if memory serves its generaly wetter, so when converting from one to the other to keep the same 'strength' I'd use two thirds of the amount of sodium hydroxide as of potassium. So two thirds of 4oz would be two and two thirds ounces (just shy of 3oz).

(cut)

Quote:
rinsing is not problem as i have the river at the bottom of the garden, and i also have vinegar to counteract the caustic soda ....


Vinegar should work... IF you want to be really clever, add juice from a red cabbage. It'll be blue until you've added enough acid to counter the lye, then it'll turn red. And as vinegar (or acetic acid) is a 'weak' acid (I wouldn't slosh neat acidic acid around, all the same, its 'weak' relative to 'strong' acids!) your mix should turn red when it is safe to pour away.

Tavascarow



Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8405
Location: South Cornwall
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Word of warning!!
Always add the caustic to the water not the other way round.
Small amounts of water on caustic soda creates a very strong & sometimes violently reacting corosive that may spit.
Adding crystals slowly to volume of water is much safer but I'd still wear goggles.

Nanny



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
Nanny wrote:

even better then

so after i do this one with the salt and alum to keep the hair on one side, i could forget the salt, use perhaps 4 oz caustic to whatever the equivalent uk is to 10 american gallons and then go for it with another skin


Okay... And the instructions are for potassium hydroxide?

Doing a little mental arithmetic... 1 mole of NaOH is 40g, and 1 mole of KOH is 56g. So Potassium hydroxide is near as dammit half as heavy again, and if memory serves its generaly wetter, so when converting from one to the other to keep the same 'strength' I'd use two thirds of the amount of sodium hydroxide as of potassium. So two thirds of 4oz would be two and two thirds ounces (just shy of 3oz).

(cut)

Quote:
rinsing is not problem as i have the river at the bottom of the garden, and i also have vinegar to counteract the caustic soda ....


Vinegar should work... IF you want to be really clever, add juice from a red cabbage. It'll be blue until you've added enough acid to counter the lye, then it'll turn red. And as vinegar (or acetic acid) is a 'weak' acid (I wouldn't slosh neat acidic acid around, all the same, its 'weak' relative to 'strong' acids!) your mix should turn red when it is safe to pour away.


ok

so for a max of 6 uk gallons you would use .....oh go on, you are a chemist, you will be able to tell me how much for 6 uk gallons and save my brain cells - how about an oz and a half?

i can use vinegar for rinsing, it says 1 pint (16oz) to 3 american gallons and leave it overnight so that is not a problem

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nanny wrote:

the book calls for 4 oz to 8.33 uk gallons

now you have me worried.....i don't need any weedkiller......

all my drains go to the septic tank...........not on mains drainage

this is wales you know........we've only just got the 'lectric up here and if you run the shower the lights go dim


A little mental arithmetic...

3oz (lets assume) of sodium hydroxide is about 85g.

Sodium hydroxide has a molar mass of 40g.

So thats 2.125 moles.

Acetic acid has a molar mass of, 60g

60 times 2.125 is near as dammit 130g.

So to fully neutralise that much sodium hydroxide you need that much acetic acid... Vinegar is only about 5% acid, so you need about 20 times 130g, so over two and a half litres of vinegar. Ish.

But don't fret that much, I've got very little experience curing skins and suchlike, but I should think (although I don't know) that the curing process does for some of the alkali.

Nanny



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

not fretting but don't want to kill myself or anybody else

so how much caustic soda in 6 uk gallons then?

then i will have the whole thing in my mind at last

head now spinning and i remember why i failed chemistry

vegplot



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21297
Location: Ynys Môn
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then....

Just under 3oz

Edit: for 8.33 gallons

Last edited by vegplot on Mon Jun 16, 08 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

Nanny



Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

vegplot wrote:
Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then....


please don't take me down that path while i am struggling with the other one

one step at a time for an old lady if you don't mind...........

vegplot



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21297
Location: Ynys Môn
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Nanny wrote:
vegplot wrote:
Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then....


please don't take me down that path while i am struggling with the other one

one step at a time for an old lady if you don't mind...........


You don't need to neutralise if you not putting vast quantities down the drain or very strong solutions. The levels used for curing aren't that strong and you can safely flush those away with water. However, if you're wasting directly into a river then you'd have to neutralise, which you're not.

If Cab's calculations are correct, and I have no reason to doubt them, then add 3oz of caustic soda to 8.33 gallons of water (wearing safety glasses) and you'll have your solution. When finished flush it away with of water.

So for 6 gallons you'll need 3 x 6/8.33 ounces

drunk_nik



Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

vegplot wrote:
Nanny wrote:
vegplot wrote:
Of course, if you wanted an alkaline soil then....


please don't take me down that path while i am struggling with the other one

one step at a time for an old lady if you don't mind...........


You don't need to neutralise if you not putting vast quantities down the drain or very strong solutions. The levels used for curing aren't that strong and you can safely flush those away with water. However, if you're wasting directly into a river then you'd have to neutralise, which you're not.

If Cab's calculations are correct, and I have no reason to doubt them, then add 3oz of caustic soda to 8.33 gallons of water (wearing safety glasses) and you'll have your solution. When finished flush it away with of water.

So for 6 gallons you'll need 3 x 6/8.33 ounces


Sort of agree with Vegplot here, at 2.125 moles per 8.33gallons (trusting Cab's calcs here - they look fairly accurate though) you're only at about a 0.06M solution - you could quite easily allow the hide to drip dry, then leave to wash out in the river without doing any ecological damage. (So I agree with the no need to neutralise - but not the not washing out in the river.)

That said I was a physical chemist - the most dangerous chemicals I ever got to play with were water and sand (god knows how I got a thesis about solar energy and Hydrogen fuels out of them!) - so I'm probably not an expert in what will or will not damage an ecosystem.

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 08 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

drunk_nik wrote:

Sort of agree with Vegplot here, at 2.125 moles per 8.33gallons (trusting Cab's calcs here - they look fairly accurate though)


They may SEEM accurate, but they were all done in the head, and by an innumerate biologist so take 'em with a pinch of NaCl.

Quote:
you're only at about a 0.06M solution - you could quite easily allow the hide to drip dry, then leave to wash out in the river without doing any ecological damage. (So I agree with the no need to neutralise - but not the not washing out in the river.)

That said I was a physical chemist - the most dangerous chemicals I ever got to play with were water and sand (god knows how I got a thesis about solar energy and Hydrogen fuels out of them!) - so I'm probably not an expert in what will or will not damage an ecosystem.


60mM NaOH (I didn't do that sum, but sounds about right) will still leave your fingers feeling all soapy. I'd not worry overly about pouring a wee bit in a well flowing river, but I'll wager that it would be illegal to do so.

Why is there never an environmental chemist around when you need one?

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