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dieselveg



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 05 7:36 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

quote="dougal"]When you state "the vast majority of Biodiesel production, mainly relies on the FOSSIL FUEL methanol", (your capital letters) I have to conclude that you've not heard it called "wood alcohol" and are unaware that methanol can be produced as easily as ethanol by fermentation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioalcohol
[/quote]

Sorry forgot to log in

Thank you for your welcome to the forum dougal.

I dont believe we have any misunderstandings, just different views, we just arrived at a site in which you dougal appered to be slagging us off somewhat, and it still appears that way

The point we were getting at is the vast majority of methanol that goes into bio-diesel production IS made from fossil fuel. This is even confirmed with a quote through the link you posted above "Today, synthesis gas is most commonly produced from the methane component in natural gas rather than from coal" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol. Just because it can be made via a greener method does not mean that the majority actually is.

I will also repeat what it says on ATG's iso9001 cert "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts."

Often paper statistics dont hold true to actual experience, we have a number of customers who state that they get better MPG and / or have more available power and low end torque than with bio-diesel, we have NONE who state the other way round.

There is obviously a place for all bio-fuels, our customers like the idea that the fuel is pure and one does not have to go down the chemistry route to run his Diesel in an environmentally friendly manner. Each to their own.

We have customers who buy auxiliary heaters from us because of the very poor low temperature characteristics of bio-diesel. please see this link that states conola ester has a cloud point of 50 deg F (10 deg C), another reason that it is mainly sold as B5. http://muextension.missouri.edu/explore/agguides/agengin/g01990.htm. Perhaps more important is the pour point of which rapeseed oil goes down to -30 deg C.

Bio-diesel may or maynot be the marginally better fuel, but at the chemical and ecological expence? We think not. We will continue to offer a genuine alternative.

We have many customers who travel for less than half price, they harvest free waste oil, process it, use it and pay 27.1p per litre fuel duty. Sorry we should have stated one third of the price on our website, not half. Before you state the obvious, no they are not really bothered about the time taken in terms of money. What matters is they can produce their fuel extremely cheaply, with no chemical risk or expence.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 05 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:
ISO 9001 applies to the company not the product. It is about ... the company's Quality Control management and NOT how good the product is!

dieselveg wrote:
We can only presume he is harping on about our congratulating our supplier ATG in attaining the ISO9001 quality standard. On ATG's certificate it states that they have "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts." ... it certainly contributes to the prospective buyers confidence!!

dougal wrote:
Your website claims "The ONLY kit manufacturers to have attained the ISO 9001 Quality Standard for their vegetable oil kits." I repeat my point that ISO 9001 is not a product quality standard.

dieselveg wrote:
I will also repeat what it says on ATG's iso9001 cert "estblished and applied a quality system for manufacturing and distribution of diesel fuel heaters, vegetable oil kits and automotive parts."



My point remains that there is a significant difference between the Dieselveg website claim:
"attained the ISO 9001 Quality Standard for their vegetable oil kits"
and the certificate saying they have
"estblished and applied a quality system"
This could easily but *inappropriately* "contribute to the prospective buyers confidence!!"


ISO 9001 is about the company's internal paperwork systems and **NOT** the kits.

The point is that simple.

And if that preliminary point cannot be understood, sadly, really, really sadly I don't see the point in further debate.


As I said before "I lose respect for" those incapable or unwilling to accept that paperwork and product are not the same.
It is simply a personal Litmus Test that I have found valuable when assessing the extent to which sales and marketing materials might "bend the truth".
And one I recommend to others.

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 05 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Using Veg Oil, or Biodiesel, is obviously dramatically more environmentally responsible than using fossil diesel.

There may be dispute about whether Veg Oil or Biodiesel is the ecologically best choice, but purely on ecological considerations, they are fairly close competitors with conventional mineral petrochemical diesel miles behind.

Unlike Biodiesel, no vehicle manufacturer approves the use of Veg Oil, in any proportion. Even for this reason alone, Biodiesel represents the better potential route for the general public, whether Downsizer or not, to make a significant impact on fossil carbon usage and urban air quality, particularly particulate pollution.

Use of New Veg Oil, whether for direct use or conversion into Biodiesel is effectively economically ruled out by the UK tax combined with the cost of the oil - perhaps except in tanker-load quantities.
For DIYers, Waste Veg Oil is simpler to process to "fuel grade" than making Biodiesel. But WVO *does* need some processing. And Biodiesel homebrewing is not greatly different from home soap-making in principle. But the quantities are massively larger! And you might just think of going into the soap-making business to use up the glycerine produced...
Sadly for both, the use of *waste* oil may mean a sacrifice of control over the fuel qualities of the product - such aspects as the minimum usage temperature vary greatly depending on whether its rape, corn or palm oil...

In use, the Biodiesel driver has to make no real compromises to achieve ecological benefit. There is a tiny hit on performance and fuel economy, and one should be prepared to change one's fuel filter a couple of times as the Biodiesel can loosen pre-existing muck. And to wipe any spills off the paintwork.
However Veg Oil requires the enthusiast to firstly convert his vehicle. There are different styles of conversion - they operate differently - but one may have: an extra tank to accomodate, an unusual startup and/or shutdown procedure (and don't ever forget!), plus the need for more frequent engine oil changes.

Who are the biggest Biodiesel retailers in the UK?
Surprise! Its Asda and Tesco.
But they are *importing* the stuff from Europe.
For all the usual reasons, the UK needs to have its own biofuel industry. With UK crops being processed to oil in the UK and processed with BioMethanol to Biodiesel that can be blended into *all* the (ultra low sulphur) diesel fuel for everyone - just like in France and Germany. The proportion of bio could then be increased, in principle, all the way to 100% without a problem for modern vehicles - or even particular awareness by the drivers. And the proportion should be increased as production steps up. I'd expect the 100% Bio to be available as a consumer choice.

Expressed simply, I'd like to see Biodiesel sneaked into consumers tanks from every filling station in the country.
I welcome every Asda and Tesco Bio pump, and want to see more of them.
My estimate is that a single Tesco 5% Biodiesel pump probably does more global good than hundreds, if not thousands, of homebrew enthusiasts.

Veg Oil doesn't have that potential. Its for enthusiasts ONLY.
And its what the mass market does that will save or wreck the planet - not what enthusiasts do.

My personal conclusion is that Biodiesel (in any proportion) is a great ecological product for the general market, but for technically-minded enthusiasts it is a close call, but my inclination is towards Biodiesel, where there are "homebrew sessions" rather than daily considerations.

I am certainly a detached, and hopefully an objective observer.
I don't think that "bigots", zealots and even commercial interests, promoting one biofuel against the other helps to get the message across that increasing the use of *either* and *both* would produce ecological benefit.

dieselveg



Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 05 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

We remain unmoved and certainly will not be editing our website, even to gain your respect.


We take it you will not be nipping in to buy a kit in the near future then dougal. lol.

Res



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Hi Dougal,

I think on the whole, that is a well done. You have explained the current situation well and I wholeheartedly agree that greater use of both biofuels will benefit us ALL.

Many thanks,

Richard

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 43943
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I'd just like to add that Dougal is spot on with regards to the certification, it's more about how you run your business not how well your products are designed, manufactured or work

PeterR



Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Milton Keynes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 5:09 pm    Post subject: LILI now sells bulk biodiesel Reply with quote    

Shameless (but relevant) plug:

In addition to our biodiesel courses and book, at the Low Impact Living Initiative we've just added bulk sales of biodiesel to our online shop.

We're selling either four 200 litre metal drums delivered on a pallet, or a 1000 litre bulk container.

The fuel is certified to the european standard for biodiesel EN14214, and is made from waste veg oil by a workers' cooperative.

Price includes delivery anywhere in mainland England, Wales, or lowland or Central Scotland (can be delivered further afield for slight extra charge)

see http://www.lowimpact.org/acatalog/biodiesel_fuel.html

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 43943
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Blimey, very good news, I notice it says the pump is "useful if you are dispensing biodiesel from a 200 litre (45 gallon) drum" what if it's the 1000l container? And does it have a use by date?

PeterR



Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Milton Keynes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

For the 1000 litre container, you could use the barrel pump but it's just possible you might need to add an extra little bit of hose on the intake pipe if the bulk container is deeper than a barrel (I suspect it would be ok without, though).

The biodiesel doesn't have a specific use by date. It's slightly hygroscopic (but not massively so) and should keep a pretty long time, at least six months, probably much longer especially if kept dark and air tight.

If you used it so slowly that you were still using it next winter, you might need to mix in a bit of winter dinodiesel for winterizing (diesel sold in the summer and winter are different, in winter the producers add stuff to lower the cloud/gel point). You can also buy winterizer separately.

According to page 86 of our biodiesel book:

"Storage
Biodiesel is much safer to store than mineral diesel. It is non toxic, biodegradable, and has a higher flashpoint. Like petrodiesel, algae can grow in biodiesel causing slime to gunk up fuel lines and filters. Storage containers should be clean, dry, and dark to avoid algae formation. Also like petrodiesel, biodiesel is hygroscopic: it will absorb water over time. Avoid copper, zinc, or tin for long-term storage: mild steel, aluminium, stainless steel, or polyethylene are good."

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 43943
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Sorry, another stoopid question, how much does a 200l barrel weigh?

PeterR



Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Milton Keynes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

well i've just checked in our book and the density of biodiesel is 0.875 - 0.9, so I guess a 200 litre barrel is about 180 KGs plus the weight of the barrel. A bit heavy to send by parcel post if that's what you're thinking Or to carry upstairs into a flat

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 43943
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Thinking more about manouverability on site, you'd need a hefty sack trolley to do that.

sean
Downsizer Moderator


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 41707
Location: North Devon
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 05 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

tahir wrote:
Thinking more about manouverability on site, you'd need a hefty sack trolley to do that.


'Sall about technique mate.

Res



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 05 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Blimey, thanks to President Bush for joining in our little debate and calling for more biodiesel useage, thank you SIR

Andrea



Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 05 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

For anyone who's interested, my OH did the LILI Biodiesel course at the weekend & recommends it thoroughly.

There were participants from as far away as Croatia and China, and people planning everything from small scale personal production through to large commercial enterprises.

He says it was well worth the money & we may look at further courses there in the future.

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