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dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 1:16 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
dougal wrote:
I have supposed that the products of yeast digestion of the more complex sugars in the flour (maltose, amylose?) would produce compounds which, on cooking, actually produce a depth of varied flavour, rather than simple cooked starch.


Bread yeasts, although they're the same species as wine and beer yeasts, don't go entirely anaerobic very quickly; ... Try using a wine yeast for making bread and a bread yeast for wine.

It's worth thinking about the ecology of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, our common yeast. Wild yeast lives most productively on fruits; the blook on grapes and plums, the yeast that makes elderberries ferment quickly, that's the stuff. ... cometabolising other compounds in the fruit to produce other aromatics ...

Its this diversity that interests me.
One hears of bakers using specific ("ripe") fruits in their sourdough starters - to catch specific strains of yeast. So as to produce particular "side reactions", and a more complex, satisfying flavour in the bread.
Quote:
It isn't well adapted to degrading polysaccharides; ...
And I had gathered that malted flour was a good source of the amylase that would do that specific job.
Quote:
So it really is relying on free sugar to get it going. Now there's ALWAYS some free sugar, especially in malted grain flour of course.
But that would more likely be maltose than glucose/fructose?
Quote:


But the quality of the rise you get depends not only on free sugar; a good gluten content is needed, and if you've got too many whole or chaffy grains you'll end up cutting down on rising by breaking up the gluten chains.
Yes agreed, you not only need to generate the CO2 gas (and steam during the "spring") but you need the gluten network to provide the tensile strength and elastic extensibility to retain the gas, in expanded bubbles, during the rising and cooking of the loaf.
My point was that the added (sucrose) sugar provided a dependable source of plenty CO2 for the compromised conditions inside an automated breadmaker.
I tend to add things like porridge oats and pumpkin seeds after kneading and bulk fermentation, and to try to do it 'lightly', a bit like folding in a soufflé.

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

dougal wrote:

Its this diversity that interests me.
One hears of bakers using specific ("ripe") fruits in their sourdough starters - to catch specific strains of yeast. So as to produce particular "side reactions", and a more complex, satisfying flavour in the bread.


I can see that working. There's also an old Chinese bread that used fermenting crab apples for a source of sourdough.

Quote:
And I had gathered that malted flour was a good source of the amylase that would do that specific job.


It is. That's why often malted four can be a good one that doesn't need sugar in it... But as there are more bits in it, you're often as well adding some sugar for even more kick.

Quote:
But that would more likely be maltose than glucose/fructose?


Which is fine, as yeast has a maltase enzyme to split the maltose to a useable product.

Quote:

Yes agreed, you not only need to generate the CO2 gas (and steam during the "spring") but you need the gluten network to provide the tensile strength and elastic extensibility to retain the gas, in expanded bubbles, during the rising and cooking of the loaf.
My point was that the added (sucrose) sugar provided a dependable source of plenty CO2 for the compromised conditions inside an automated breadmaker.


Yeah, more or less that's why it's added. Remember as well that most bread machine baking is done with dried yeast that hasn't been activated; you're starting off with a lagging strain, so you need a good set of conditions (lots of free carbob helps) to get it going. Basic microbiology, the yeast wants the sugar to get its metabolism off the ground in a hurry, and in bread machine baking that can make a difference.

Quote:

I tend to add things like porridge oats and pumpkin seeds after kneading and bulk fermentation, and to try to do it 'lightly', a bit like folding in a soufflé.


Bread machines, many of them at least, also add such ingredients in later. Handy, that.

ButteryHOLsomeness



Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

alison wrote:
I think the sugar in the bread machine recipe is food for the yeast.


possibly but not always, my favourite bread machine recipe doesn't have any sugar in it at all and it rises very well

if you use non bread machine yeast you have to feed it with warm water and sugar but the stuff for the bread machine works a little different as far as i know

ButteryHOLsomeness



Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Fiddlesticks Julie wrote:
doesn't vitamin C do something to the yeast as well? We use to sell ascorbic acid powder ( same thing) in Boots to home breadmakers years ago!



i'm not sure of the science behind it but vitamin c gives you a better rise for the loaf

personally though, i find most bread machine bread like a brick no matter what leavening agents are used so i only use the dough function and then bake it myself (actually faster anyway) i often make rolls vs bread shaped stuff anyway... but i digress

ButteryHOLsomeness



Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

wellington womble wrote:
bagpuss wrote:
Can I aks why a couple of teaspoons of sugar in a bread recipe is such a problem on the grand scale of things



I expect their are health benefits, too, but that wasn't what I was bothered about. Apologies for ranting at you all!


actually there most definately ARE health benefits (other than just dental) for eating less sugar

sugar actually causes an allergic reaction in most people that... wait for it...



Makes you crave more sugar

refined sugar also lowers your immune system...

i'm a self confessed sugar addict, i've got such a horrible sweet tooth but i can say that once i've been off the most obvious stuff for a week or so (after i've suffered through horrible withdrawl, every bit as bad as caffeine withdrawl) i tend to lose my cravings for most of anyway. eat lower gi foods and the craving goes away too... obviously not a problem for you ww (you lucky girl!) but for others you'll find it helps

bagpuss



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 10506
Location: cambridge
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

ButteryHOLsomeness wrote:


actually there most definately ARE health benefits (other than just dental) for eating less sugar

sugar actually causes an allergic reaction in most people that... wait for it...

Makes you crave more sugar

refined sugar also lowers your immune system...

i'm a self confessed sugar addict, i've got such a horrible sweet tooth but i can say that once i've been off the most obvious stuff for a week or so (after i've suffered through horrible withdrawl, every bit as bad as caffeine withdrawl) i tend to lose my cravings for most of anyway. eat lower gi foods and the craving goes away too... obviously not a problem for you ww (you lucky girl!) but for others you'll find it helps


I wasn't questioning that a diet with less refined sugar in it was better for you as there is large quanities of research which support this but as I pointed out earlier if you are making the effort to make your own bread even using a bread machine you are likely to be more considerate of your diet anyway and in those circumstances there is probably no need to worry about a couple of tsps in a loaf of bread

I would be intrigued to see more information about your other claims though

ButteryHOLsomeness



Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

bagpuss wrote:
ButteryHOLsomeness wrote:


actually there most definately ARE health benefits (other than just dental) for eating less sugar

sugar actually causes an allergic reaction in most people that... wait for it...

Makes you crave more sugar

refined sugar also lowers your immune system...



I wasn't questioning that a diet with less refined sugar in it was better for you as there is large quanities of research which support this
I would be intrigued to see more information about your other claims though


actually i was replying to ww's post but in answer to yours i put in the search string in google 'sugar causes allergic reaction crave sugar' and found a whole slew of things though this particular page is quite to the point though perhaps not very technically worded http://www.nancyappleton.com/pages/sugquot.html

this page whilst not written by a doctor goes into some of the scientific details concerning sugar and it's effects on immune systems

http://www.wholefamilyhealth.com/articles_generalhealth_sugarsholdonhealth.htm

i couldn't give you the particulars of where i first heard about both of these, they've been in the back of my mind for years. americans tend to know quite a lot about various basic health issues (even if they fail to follow them!) simply because, i believe, they have to at least try to take care of themselves as healthcare is exorbitant in the states. you can't blink without having health information thrown at you from all angles... i'm a sponge so i soak it all up...

now, if they'd just stop contradicting themselves every couple of years, it's getting really messy in my brain

dougal



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

cab wrote:
dougal wrote:

Its this diversity that interests me.
... to produce particular "side reactions", and a more complex, satisfying flavour in the bread.

I can see that working.
Quote:
And I had gathered that malted flour was a good source of the amylase that would do that specific job.

It is. That's why often malted four can be a good one that doesn't need sugar in it... But as there are more bits in it, you're often as well adding some sugar for even more kick.
Quote:
But that would more likely be maltose than glucose/fructose?

Which is fine, as yeast has a maltase enzyme to split the maltose to a useable product.
IMHO, one of the reasons that commercial bread has such a bland (lack of) flavour is very likely to be its relative lack of diversity in its chemistry and biochemistry.
Getting "more going on" has to be good for creating more, and more interesting flavours.
Which would be why using a mixture of different flours, even in small quantities, can 'bring out' flavour. And diverse strains of yeast.
Whereas plain yeast acting largely on added sucrose, whose alcohol and CO2 are flavourless and largely lost, can't be releasing much flavour from the flour. (Flour on its own, or as a paste, or cooked on its own without browning (even as an unleavened paste) doesn't taste good, or of much.)

Yes, americans (especially) love the taste of sucrose, so the residual presence of some would appeal to them.
But for 'interesting' and 'characterful' flavour in bread, one has to involve and activate the chemistry of more complex carbohydrates.

I find that "Malted" and "Granary" flours (even though they have only a small malt content) do give a characteristic (strong) "malt" flavour.
Initially, I cut back on the quantity of Granary, and only a tiny amount did produce an improved flavour.
However, having discovered that Rye would provide the Amylase (without the malt's own flavour) I've switched to that - 2 dessert spoonfuls added to 400gm of wheat flours (plus whatever is in the pre-ferment) makes a nice difference.
Peter Reinhart (american breadmaking guru) asserts that well-worked amylase (plus oven steam) makes for a dramatically flavoursome crust. I can't prove it scientifically, but I certainly wouldn't disagree. He mixes cooled ingredients and holds at fridge temp for 24 hours before a short and warm bulk fermentation. I use room temp ingredients and allow an overnight, room temp fermentation with amylase supplied by the rye. It works for me!
Quote:

Quote:

I tend to add things like porridge oats and pumpkin seeds after kneading and bulk fermentation, and to try to do it 'lightly', a bit like folding in a soufflé.

Bread machines, many of them at least, also add such ingredients in later. Handy, that.
Indeed, little compartments to drop in such additions, late in the cycle.
My reason for noting it, is that this is hardly universal practice among manual breadmakers.
Adding "extra solid bits", like nuts, seeds, whole or rolled grains *after* kneading and fermenting *does* produce a lighter loaf. Its a useful tip to be aware of.

bagpuss



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 10506
Location: cambridge
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Okay first I will say as both a biochemist and a type 1 diabetic I am always very wary of such websites especially when they never refer to any peer reviewed data

the problems sugar can cause with the immune system are in the cases of hyperglycemia which is what occurs in both forms of diabetes when the blood sugar is consistently above 8mmols or 140mg/dl. High blood sugars do indeed supress the immune system making a person more susceptable to infections and also cause a host of other problems

see this paper for details

Crit Care Med. 2005 Jul;33(7):1624-33. Related Articles, Links
Acute hyperglycemia and the innate immune system: clinical, cellular, and molecular aspects.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16003073&query_hl=2

Most healthy people will not see this effect with sugar as if you have a normal insulin supply and response your blood sugar is unlikely to ever significantly deviate from between 4 and 6 mmols

This of course doesn't mean that sugar in large quanities is good for you. Being aware of the glycemic index of foods and making sugar you don't eat excessive amounts of processed sugar is a good idea as far as anyones health is concerned but I find this is where the maxim everything in moderation except moderation is important

Sugar doesn't cause allergic reactions in many if any people as an allergy to sugar at least in its simplest form would make life very difficult. I guess what the authors are driving at is that high blood sugars and excessive consumption of sugar will cause health problems one of which is a supression of the immune system but they are over simplfying and using familar terminology to such an extent to make what they are saying misleading

tawny owl



Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 563
Location: Hampshire
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

bagpuss wrote:
I guess my point there was anyone who is concerned enough about their diet to be regularly making their own bread and thinking about whether putting sugar in it is the right thing to do probably isn't consuming large quanities of processed food with no regard for their sugar content


Yes, I see what you mean. The problem is that there is so much hidden sugar that even people who try to lead a healthy lifestylle could end up taking in a lot more sugar than they need to (or even think they are), thus, although I'd agree that one teaspoon more or less in a whole loaf wouldn't be a problem (any more than some fat is), this idea that everything has to have sugar (or more likely, cheap bulky corn syrup) in it is irritating, and I think that's what WW was getting at, not necessarily bread per se.

bagpuss



Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 10506
Location: cambridge
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 05 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

tawny owl wrote:

Yes, I see what you mean. The problem is that there is so much hidden sugar that even people who try to lead a healthy lifestylle could end up taking in a lot more sugar than they need to (or even think they are), thus, although I'd agree that one teaspoon more or less in a whole loaf wouldn't be a problem (any more than some fat is), this idea that everything has to have sugar (or more likely, cheap bulky corn syrup) in it is irritating, and I think that's what WW was getting at, not necessarily bread per se.


I guess what I was getting it is that we do seem to have a tendency these days to vilanize food stuffs which can be connected to health problems and by a sensible everything in moderation attitude there should be no food which is out of bounds to most people which is why I questioned someone being worried by a tsp of sugar in a loaf of bread

being concious of what we eat and how it can affect our bodies is a good idea but we have to be careful not to take it too extremes

wellington womble



Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 14810
Location: East Midlands
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 05 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Oh dear, I really must have ranted about that! It's not the added sugar that was the problem, it was just being told that you 'need' it, when it was much better bread without. I suspect a lot of breadmakers bad reputations are the fault of the evil villain, sugar!

Actually, I do object to sugars and sweetners being added to so much - we had an instant pasta sauce the other day, which must have been full of the stuff - it was like drinking diet coke or something, and was horrible! I find myself reducing sugar in alsorts of things I make, and one of the reasons I make stuff, is cos I can mess about with sugar and salt contents - I'm a fussy so an so. I don't know about whether sugar is addictive, or the health implications, althoguh I don't doubt it has some.

I'm pretty sure I'm not addicted to sugar, but not so lucky as you might think buttery, as I'm totally adicted to cheese and butter instead! I tend to watch salt, and attempt to watch saturated fat and booze (well a bit, anyway) I don't worry about sugar, cos we rarely eat processed food or sweet stuff.

oh - and I'll leave the biochemistry to cab - I haven't a clue about it, but you really can make better bread with no sugar in, honest!

Stacey



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 8380
Location: Kernow
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 05 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

I've bought some Stevia seeds to see if they will provide any kind of reasonable alternative to processed sugar. Has anyone else tried growing and using Stevia?

Bugs



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 10743

PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 05 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Where did you buy the stevia from? I believe T&M stopped selling it, because of health concerns, and have just looked it up on the FSA site which says that basically the extract or plant are not permitted for sale as food ingredients anywhere in the EU...main health concerns being effects on male fertility and "a metabolite produced by the human gut microflora, steviol, is genotoxic (ie. damages DNA)"

Stuff here about it: http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/webpage/stevia

I imagine the seeds are still available for interest/as a plant but I would think twice - and then probably decide against - about eating it ...there's always angelica and such like to sweeten your fruit dishes and honey for cakes and jam

Not saying it's wrong - just - be careful!

Stacey



Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 8380
Location: Kernow
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 05 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote    

Oooh I didn't know any of that Bugs

I got them from Nickys seeds. I thought it was funny as she sent me a free packet of a plant which is poisonous

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