What is cider ?

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What is cider ?
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Falstaff

Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 15 5:40 pm Post subject: What is cider ?
There are some quite "odd Ciders" about these days - with all sorts of extraneous ingrediments SO is there a specific definition of Cider - or is it a bit like "Free Range chickens" ?

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 15 5:52 pm Post subject:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-162-cider-production/excise-notice-162-cider-production Section 2.1 and 30.

Cathryn

Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19856
Location: Ceredigion

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 15 9:51 pm Post subject:
It's the first alcoholic drink that I remember being introduced to, loved it ever since. Not all of it though. I rarely enjoy the holier than thou still scrumpy type of stuff bought direct from the farm. And anything with added sweeteners.... yeuucchh! Does that help?

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 15 10:09 pm Post subject:
Old Rosie. There is no other cider. I've not touched it for nearly 6 years.

sean
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42207
Location: North Devon

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 15 10:13 pm Post subject:
There was a young lady from Ryde Who ate some green apples and died The apples fermented Inside the lamented Made cider inside her inside.

chez

Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 35934
Location: The Hive of the Uberbee, Quantock Hills, Somerset

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 8:24 am Post subject:
Apples and a dead rat. Cloudy and flat, served at room temperature. The rest of it is vile.

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 9:08 am Post subject:

Lot of silly nonsense.
Some makers (wont name names) actually dont have ANY apple in it at all. Just glucose concentrate and flavourings.
Some have jacked it up with sugar to a high alcohol level and then water it down to session cider ABV and add caramel for colour and malic acid for mouthfeel (this is your very commercial brand names)
Then there are craft cider producers - like me. Its 100% juice from British apples thats fermented, matured and either bottled or bagged. I can either pasteurise or not as the market requires, and have started doing bottle conditioned cider (thats naturally sparkling to those who dont know).
Ive been shortlisted for another award too.

Last autumn did 1800L. Ive only got 200L left which will be gione by the end of summer. This autumn doing 3000L.
Only wish Id taken Bodger's advice and done it sooner (but realistically, didnt have the money then).

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 9:26 am Post subject:
I'll name names. Bulmers (strongbow, etc) use concentrate from Germany, despite being based amongst orchards. Westons (Old Rosie, for example) use local apples, and quite a lot of sheep shit.

Falstaff

Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 9:40 am Post subject:

Nick wrote:

I'll name names. Bulmers (strongbow, etc) use concentrate from Germany, ........

That's interesting Nick. It was the price of apple juice in Lidl (made from concentrate) and the present abundance of Elderflowers which led me to ask.

Thanks for your input Lorraine, that's highly educational.

So according to "the rules" (post 2010 apparently)- In order to be called cider - at least 35% of the mix must be of apple juice at 1033 or better.

(as an aside the "minima" alone, would give a drink approx 1% abv - which could not be called cider !)

The "juice" is allowed to be made from concentrate and as much sugar (including high fructose corn sugar) and water can be added as seems convenient.

Lorraine - is there an implication in what you wrote that your "unnamed" producer, "gets round" these regs by whacking a load of sugar in, so they can call it "cider" then afterwards dilutes it to a "drinkable level" ? or do you think the 35% rule would still apply to the diluted product ?

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 10:10 am Post subject:

A lot depends on the finished product and duty rates.
If your cider is of an ABV above a certain limit, you pay higher rate duty. If it contains anything other than apples (ie has blackberry or raspberry or whatever added) it is then a fruit wine, and attracts a higher level of duty.
This obviously has a bearing on producers and you will find that the ciders with added fruit etc are aimed at the younger end of the market. HOWEVER, as this is a fast growing market, and commercial cider can be made all year at the drop of a hat (as it were) even established traditional makers are jumping on the band wagon - after all, its just another batch to them.

I get one bite at it - from Sept to Dec, and this all has to be finished, blended etc, so I need to know what Im doing with my 'raw' cider by end of Feb.
I need to have some plain old 6% still cider for my pub and my traditionalists, and Ive settled on bottle carbonation for the rest. As a one person producer, this is enough for me to keep my eyes on.
You wont see Kiwi or vanilla going into any cider here!
(although Ive made some with a touch of elderflower FOR MY PERSONAL CONSUMPTION).
labelling regs are not strict enough in my mind, but if you look at the back label and just see the order of ingredients....some foreign 'ciders' first ingredient is water, followed by sugar......

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 10:11 am Post subject:
Small industry - naming no names

Cathryn

Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Posts: 19856
Location: Ceredigion

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 2:49 pm Post subject:
I will have to try yours Lorraine. What annoys me is that some of them don't have clear ingredients on them at all. Apart from apples, strawberries, cherries.

chez

Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 35934
Location: The Hive of the Uberbee, Quantock Hills, Somerset

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 3:04 pm Post subject:
Lorraine's is lovely, really nice stuff.

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 3:11 pm Post subject:
not 'vile' then?

Lorrainelovesplants

Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 6521
Location: Dordogne

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 15 3:12 pm Post subject:
Cathryn - any time your down this way. I am looking at Mail order. Its the legalities of selling (licence -wise) that I need to look at.

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