Archive for Downsizer For an ethical approach to consumption          Downsizer Forum Index -> Energy Efficiency and Construction/Major Projects Bebo A single house would almost certainly have been a delegated decision (i.e. down to the officer). I'm not sure if there is any way that you could have forced them to take it to committee, where the decision might have been different. It's bloody annoying when it comes down to the luck of the draw in terms of what officer you get. earthyvirgo A single house would almost certainly have been a delegated decision (i.e. down to the officer). I'm not sure if there is any way that you could have forced them to take it to committee, where the decision might have been different. It's bloody annoying when it comes down to the luck of the draw in terms of what officer you get. Are we right in thinking that going to Appeal takes it out of the slippery hands of Anglesey Planners, and it goes to an independent inspector? EV

tahir

Are we right in thinking that going to Appeal takes it out of the slippery hands of Anglesey Planners, and it goes to an independent inspector? EV

Yes Bebo

Yes. I goes to the Planning Inspectorate. They are independent of local political issues and will look at the proposal on its own merits against current national and regional planning policy. They will also look back at precidents set at other appeals, so it might be worth seeing if there are any similar cases out there. farmershort

Are all planning committees made up of locally elected bods? Are they the ones making these decisions?

Don't think it even went to Committee Penny. It's on the recommendation of our Planning officer, who recommended refusal to her manager.

EV

are you on the field-to-farm forum? I assume you've read the book? The author is on the forum every few days, and is very helpful with advice on specific planning issues.

HTH

Adam earthyvirgo

Are all planning committees made up of locally elected bods? Are they the ones making these decisions?

Don't think it even went to Committee Penny. It's on the recommendation of our Planning officer, who recommended refusal to her manager.

EV

are you on the field-to-farm forum? I assume you've read the book? The author is on the forum every few days, and is very helpful with advice on specific planning issues.

HTH

Adam

Nope, but will take a look at it as I'm currently looking at various forums (fora?) which might contain useful info.

Thanks for the tip.

EV farmershort

Are all planning committees made up of locally elected bods? Are they the ones making these decisions?

Don't think it even went to Committee Penny. It's on the recommendation of our Planning officer, who recommended refusal to her manager.

EV

are you on the field-to-farm forum? I assume you've read the book? The author is on the forum every few days, and is very helpful with advice on specific planning issues.

HTH

Adam

Nope, but will take a look at it as I'm currently looking at various forums (fora?) which might contain useful info.

Thanks for the tip.

EV

hope it helps.... the proper forum is beneath then "members" section, to get in there you need to have bought the book, as the password is in the book... I can recommend it as being worth it... especially as you'll then have direct access to the author, who often tells people exactly what they have to send back to the council. RichardW

Damm.

What reasons have they given? earthyvirgo

Damm.

What reasons have they given?

Briefly:

- not being on the old footprint
- being a new dwelling in the *open countryside*
- being an obtrusive feature in the landscape which is out of character with the existing pattern of development in the immediate vicinity

The plain facts of the matter: i.e it's an old established plot with well defined 'clawdd' perimeter, so difficult to understand how they're defining it as 'open countryside', the original PP wasn't on the old footprint, the village is a mish-mosh of traditional and modern style buildings etc, etc have had no bearing whatsoever on the decision.

Lets hope the planning inspector is less entrenched in local politics and policies and has eyes and ears

EV earthyvirgo

Hmmm, have just found a very interesting definition online of 'Open Countryside'

"Open farmland and fields that don't have the infrastructure nearby that is needed for development".

Our wee plot is on a minor road, bounded on the other three sides by traditional Welsh 'cloddiau'. It has had a property on it (as far as we know) for at least 100yrs.

It's a big 'Thank goodness for t'interweb' when it comes to doing this sort of research.

Also come across something called "One Planet Developments" which makes for very interesting reading.

EV Cathryn

How very frustrating for you. mochyn

How very frustrating for you.

Mistress of understatement! Cathryn

I think VP had already written the appeal this weekend. vegplot

I think VP had already written the appeal this weekend.

Did I bore you? Cathryn

Nope, I sympathised. vegplot

Nope, I sympathised.

I do tend to go on about it. vegplot

Planning appeal hearing has been set for the 6th December. I need to write a justification as to why we think concrete is a bad thing and try and quantify its impact on the build. RichardW

Progress at least to get a date even if it is another long delay.

They wonder why more people dont build eco / green house. I bet a developer could have put up a few "token" green house dead easy in the same spot. Bebo

why we think concrete is a bad thing and try and quantify its impact on the build.

You need to consider life cycle assessment of the concrete piled foundations compared to the foundations you can use if you build in a different part of the site. These take into account all of the embodied energy involved in making the cement, aggregate, mixing it and transporting it to the site. If you compare the quantities needed for the two alternatives (piled where they want it compared to whatever the alternative is - pad or strip I presume) then you can quantify the difference between the two. Ty Gwyn

What kind of footing are you having under the bales if not concrete? vegplot

What kind of footing are you having under the bales if not concrete?

Clean compacted single grade stone as the base with a plinth built of stone (reclaimed from old building) faced internally with foam glass block, and a lime mortar binder. This is designed to have some 'give' rather than be a rigid massive foundation. The whole building is designed to be recyclable at the end of its life and have a low embodied energy as possible. vegplot

why we think concrete is a bad thing and try and quantify its impact on the build.

You need to consider life cycle assessment of the concrete piled foundations compared to the foundations you can use if you build in a different part of the site. These take into account all of the embodied energy involved in making the cement, aggregate, mixing it and transporting it to the site. If you compare the quantities needed for the two alternatives (piled where they want it compared to whatever the alternative is - pad or strip I presume) then you can quantify the difference between the two.

I was planning on comparing the embodied energy of the different type of building method by volume but at this stage I don't know how much volume of concrete is required as it's not part of the plans, not yet at least.

The figures I have are:

Concrete foundation 3180MJ per cubic metre

Aggregate (rubble trench) 150MJ per cubic metre Ty Gwyn

What kind of footing are you having under the bales if not concrete?

Clean compacted single grade stone as the base with a plinth built of stone (reclaimed from old building) faced internally with foam glass block, and a lime mortar binder. This is designed to have some 'give' rather than be a rigid massive foundation. The whole building is designed to be recyclable at the end of its life and have a low embodied energy as possible.


Am i correct in thinking,that your building a Stone mortar wall to place the bales on?
The base is graded stone,but i m lost where you mention faced internally with a foam glass brick

What is the floor surface made of?

What size straw bales do you intend using? vegplot

The floor will be limecrete and bales are standard small bale. RichardW

Can you find anyone else that has done it how you want to do it?

If so they might have had to do the same to get their planning. vegplot

Cheeky buggers! The planning authority that is. In their response to the appeal they've shown photographs of a very small selection of houses in the close by village to demonstrate the typical character of buildings. This point is rather academic as they've already granted permission for the style of house we're building, we're simply moving its location.

If you take a look at this street view you'll see the three infill houses built 3 years ago are entirely at odds with the older houses in the village. Needless to say they haven't included pictures of these in their evidence. marigold

Idiots! They're just stabbing themselves in the foot, so to speak, if that's the best they can come up with, aren't they? earthyvirgo

It's almost funny, particularly as they said our comments re the houses in the village were irrelevant because we are outside the village boundary.

Stab, stab, stab

EV marigold

Sounds similar to the kind of farce that is Dealing With The DWP! You do need a black sense of humour to survive government bureaucracy . arvo

Sounds similar to the kind of farce that is Dealing With The DWP! You do need a black sense of humour to survive government bureaucracy .


its definitely some kind of Alan Bleasedale comedy waiting to happen. vegplot

Unless we and our appeal agents have missed something terribly obvious it's a farce.

Their four main objections are:

1. The new building is not on the footprint of the now demolished building.

- Permission had been granted, in 1999, for a dwelling which wasn't on the footprint. Their counter argument when challenged on this point was that the 1999 development substantially improved the entrance - our entrance is no different, it's the very same design.

2. The siting of the new building will be obtrusive as it's set back further on higher ground.

- It is higher, by 0.35m, but easily remedied by digging foundations down further which is what we've said we're doing so the overall height is the same. Moving the building back actually hides the house from the village better due to the lie of the land between the plot and the village. They presented a photograph of evidence of the increased height which looks as level as a level thing on a level day.

3. It is now classed as a development in open countryside as the old building has been demolished

- There are a number of counter arguments which have been put forward not least that if we don't win the appeal then it's going to be damned difficult to build on top of an exiting building without first demolishing it. The building is in a well defined plot with stone/earth walls on 3 sides and stone wall adjoining the road. There has been a building here for at least 120 years.

4. The building would be out of character with its surroundings.

- Despite the mis-representational evidence provided to support this view there is no local vernacular to be out of character with. They have also forgotten they have already granted permission for the building 2 years ago and as there is no material difference in design, massing, or materials. This objection is meaningless. All we're doing is wanting to move it onto solid ground. VSS

4. The building would be out of character with its surroundings.

- Despite the mis-representational evidence provided to support this view there is no local vernacular to be out of character with

Most buildings I have seen on Anglesey seem to be grey pebbledashed boxes. I think it would be quite nice to see a building "out of character" if that is the norm! vegplot

Most buildings I have seen on Anglesey seem to be grey pebbledashed boxes. I think it would be quite nice to see a building "out of character" if that is the norm!

We were talking about this today with EV's parents. Anglesey's architecture is nothing to be proud of and with the exception of a few buildings the ugliness of most villages detract from the natural beauty which is Anglesey.

The planning guide actually asks for houses not to be pebble dashed but the vast majority are and there appears to be a complete lacking of willingness to improve the design quality of new builds. arvo

Most buildings I have seen on Anglesey seem to be grey pebbledashed boxes. I think it would be quite nice to see a building "out of character" if that is the norm!

We were talking about this today with EV's parents. Anglesey's architecture is nothing to be proud of and with the exception of a few buildings the ugliness of most villages detract from the natural beauty which is Anglesey.

The planning guide actually asks for houses not to be pebble dashed but the vast majority are and there appears to be a complete lacking of willingness to improve the design quality of new builds.

One problem is that if they had much in the way of artistic ability, they'd be designers or architects, not planners and thats just the professionals in the department. I believe the decisions get made by the councillors who have even fewer skills on the whole. Hence the whole shebang is driven by 'previous'. vegplot

Hence the whole shebang is driven by 'previous'.

That's it in a nutshell. vegplot

We had our appeal hearing this morning which as far as I can tell went very well for us but that's no guarantee the decision will go in our favour. There were two officers from the LPA, the inspector, EV, myself, and our agent.

We didn't need to do a great deal of talking as the inspector spent much of the time questioning the LPA officers who didn't come across as being overly confident.

The LPA based their main argument over a clause in the now abandoned Unitary Development Plan but had passed the earlier planning application (which allowed development to be away from the footprint of the original building) on the Local Development Plan which is still in force and remains unchanged. They also got the site levels wrong and exaggerated the raised height of the proposed new build by 2 metres, and to compound it all had failed to seek advice from their own landscape dept. and therefore we unable to validate argument with any evidence.

However, we're not complacent as the finding may go against us on a technicality but we are confident we stand a good chance of getting the permission granted.

We will hopefully now before Christmas but the decision date is set for the 14th January. 12Bore

Fingers crossed. mochyn

Everything crossed here. Tavascarow

I hope it goes well for you.
So the DS xmas party is around at yours next year then?

vegplot

I hope it goes well for you.
So the DS xmas party is around at yours next year then?



Bring a trowel. Bebo

Sounds positive. Did the Inspector do a site visit? That would have helped him understand the surrounding houses better than anything that the council say.

If it was relatively short you may well hear before christmas. Planning Inspectorate are turning things around quite quickly at the moment. cassy

Best of luck, hope they grant it this time. vegplot

Sounds positive. Did the Inspector do a site visit? That would have helped him understand the surrounding houses better than anything that the council say.

If it was relatively short you may well hear before christmas. Planning Inspectorate are turning things around quite quickly at the moment.

Yes he did. At the site he questioned the LPA yet again about the harmful impact of the proposal in relation to the current granted planning application. They responded that from the road the dwelling would be more higher, which it would albeit very slightly, although the inspector did point out the backdrop of houses in the village would be more visible as they are higher when viewed from the same aspect. RichardW

Here's hoping common sense prevails. tahir

Good luck vegplot

Good luck

I hear yours is coming along a treat, corner roof overhangs excepting. tahir

Yup thanks. Jan 19th completion then we start fit out when we can afford to. I'm off again before I get sucked into the DS vortex. vegplot

This is the site plan. The LPA's objection is the new location (red) does not overlap the footprint of the old cottage and it's on this basis they refused planning. The current planning which was approved in 2009 (black) was fine until we discovered the sub soil was fractured and wouldn't support the weight of the building without concrete foundations which we want to avoid as it compromises the principles of building sustainably using renewable materials.

We purchased the plot in 2001 with planning permission (green) which also doesn't overlap the old cottage. Hey ho!

RichardW

Does it really make that much difference where on the plot the house goes? vegplot

Does it really make that much difference where on the plot the house goes?

You wouldn't have thought so but the LPA think it's very important. vegplot

Good news. Our planning appeal was allowed. We've had permitted development rights removed but that is a small price to pay (I think). gz

What does that mean? vegplot

What does that mean?

We can start building (after some more paper work and sign offs) gz

Treacodactyl

Good news. I don't suppose you get any of your extra costs paid do you? vegplot

Good news. I don't suppose you get any of your extra costs paid do you?

Doesn't look like it as the inspector didn't make a unreasonable judgement against the LPA. 12Bore

Well done, now get building quickly! troyannick

Hi
If you need any setting out or levelling during the groundworks thats what I do although need to make a small living pm me if interested mochyn

Excellent news! At last.

I was speaking to Tahir earlier: their builders should be finishing in February so that's going well too. Bebo

Good news. Our planning appeal was allowed. We've had permitted development rights removed but that is a small price to pay (I think).

Fantastic news. Did you make an appeal for costs at the hearing? I'm pretty sure if you don't ask for them the Inspector won't just decide that they should pay them. Behemoth

Great! We'll set up your sweary thread in the naughty Corner now. Rusticwood

You'll be having a groundworks party next

RichardW

Good news. shame about the PD rights. Tavascarow

excellent news.
gz

You'll be having a groundworks party next



Well if the MDS can get together and make stuff....... vegplot

You'll be having a groundworks party next



Great idea. We have a huge pile of stone to move vegplot

Good news. Our planning appeal was allowed. We've had permitted development rights removed but that is a small price to pay (I think).

Fantastic news. Did you make an appeal for costs at the hearing? I'm pretty sure if you don't ask for them the Inspector won't just decide that they should pay them.

We're speaking to our agent to tomorrow. pookie

great news! well done vegplot

Good news. shame about the PD rights.

I was going to build a shed first but I daresay I'll need planning now. tahir

We're a bit stuffed on teh PD front too, we wanted to get out veg plot up an running but need to get permission for shed and greenhouse Fee

Excellent news! earthyvirgo

We're a bit stuffed on teh PD front too, we wanted to get out veg plot up an running but need to get permission for shed and greenhouse

I had a chat on the phone with our Planning Consultant, (his assistant actually, who got 'The Book' out), he felt the restrictions were more about swimming pools, alterations to the actual dwelling, extensions and so on.

When I quizzed him about a normal garden shed and greenhouse, he said that would probably be considered OK as the PD restrictions are more for things which are wants not needs.

EV tahir

We're taking no chances. Also forgot to say well done. When will you start building? Nicky cigreen

congrats on getting permission - that's great


I wouldn't chance putting up a shed either yummersetter

So pleased for you, it's been a long wait which must have been frustrating. Tavascarow

Surely you must be allowed to put up a shed to store materials & tools? Went

Good news Hairyloon

When I quizzed him about a normal garden shed and greenhouse, he said that would probably be considered OK as the PD restrictions are more for things which are wants not needs.
If probably falls through, you could perhaps make do with an old van?

What is the plan for the build?
Have you a builder lined up, or is it all DIY? vegplot

Primarily self build but leaving options open. Skilled trades where needs be. Had long meeting with Ned Scharer of http://thenaturalbuildingcentre.co.uk/ today about accredited training opportunities for apprentices. earthyvirgo

Surely you must be allowed to put up a shed to store materials & tools?

One would think so but nothing would surprise me with Anglesey Planners!

EV frewen

on getting planning RichardW

A shed does come under the PD rights so its no shed for you without paying for a PP application. cassy

Brilliant news at last!

So, what the next step? vegplot

We now have to go through several approval stages. The first two being the plans for the entrance from the road and Code for Sustainable Home certification (of which there are three stages). We've already done the SAPS and structural engineering.

After all that there's Building Regulations.

We'r estimating the professional fee elements is around 1/3 of the total build cost. Went

We'r estimating the professional fee elements is around 1/3 of the total build cost.

They have you over a barrel - what can you do - is that much more than you estimated? earthyvirgo

We'r estimating the professional fee elements is around 1/3 of the total build cost.

They have you over a barrel - what can you do - is that much more than you estimated?

It keeps growing (CHS certification - 3 stages/ extra drawings etc) but I guess in the scheme of things, as the build costs are going to be less than a bricks and mortar house, it's far less than many builds.

Just feels like a lot up front before anything happens on the ground.

EV vegplot

*must remember to keep VAT invoice* Windymiller

So that's 4 years since you began planning the project? I hope my proposed home gets off the ground quicker!
Note to self: avoid Anglesey! nickdugs

Hello there,

It's a little while since I last looked at how you were getting on. How are things going? Windymiller

Not so good. Finding a plot is the difficult part. Found a good one but it's adjacent to the A483, so noisy, but doesn't have a bus service! Many others are too small and/or overpriced. I have enough money and a design I like, but it is difficult to get away to inspect the offerings. vegplot

The project is still on we've just not been able to devote the time to it that we would like. We're also still waiting for building regs drawings from our architect. The planning debacle put us back quite a while as it delay caused a domino effect that resulted in the last years lapse. Hairyloon

Could I trouble you for an update?
Or do I need to trawl the thread? vegplot

Could I trouble you for an update?
Or do I need to trawl the thread?

No need to trawl, just go back one post. Windymiller

The designer has obtained Type Approval for the frame, so the council can't quibble over the size of a beam and say I have to get it checked by a structural engineer! He says DIY manufacture is probably beyond me, and has approached a timber-frame company to make it. I've priced up a zinc roof, and I plan to use foamed glass aggregate and Celcon blocks for the base.

Do I need consent for a static caravan to live in during the build, and store construction materials? Hairyloon

Could I trouble you for an update?
Or do I need to trawl the thread?

No need to trawl, just go back one post.
That's a "still not started yet" then?
-ing bureaucrats. And what is your architect dithering about at? vegplot

We're making progress at last. The delay has worked to our advantage as it's given our architect time to redesign, in conjunction with a roof truss manufacturer, a new roof system. This means the construction will be simpler as the 1st floor is now incorporated into the truss structure rather than being a separate unit. This will result in a stronger unitary construction as well as being much less expensive to manufacture.

The second piece of good news is the RFG (Recycled Foam Glass) we're using for floor insulation has now been certified and we can now use a much thinner section of limecrete (65mm instead of 150mm) without compromising strength.

sean

tahir wrote:

Fabulous news, it's such a relief to finally get consent. Shall we race to see who gets finished first?

Isn't it just. Game on.

tahir won then. Slowest race in history mind. mochyn

In architecture, as a far as I can see, simpler is always better. Good stuff: when can you start? cassy

Good news on both counts! vegplot

So that's 4 years since you began planning the project? I hope my proposed home gets off the ground quicker!
Note to self: avoid Anglesey!

It's been 5 years since we started the project. We're actually starting the build this year.

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